Curse

Snow Bunny · Oct 09, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Oh and as far as inscriptions 15^50 is probably fine on most of the other martial weapons but on a scythe it absolutely should be without question 15% while enchanted.

Oh, really?

I think you're wrong. Actually, I know you are wrong. But enough of that.

15^50 is by far the best martial inscription. There's no debate on that. Always run a 15^50 weapon. And if you customize it, that's +35% damage when your health is above 50%.

I agree that vamp is the way to go, but I still have a screenie of a 170+ Reaper's Sweep in my face in halls. I asked the guy later and he said it was a sundering mod.

Crom The Pale · Oct 09, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Part of the problem with measuring Sundering vs Vampiric is that you have a random chance of critical hits during the testing.

On two 180 second tests the number of critical hits could balance but most likely they will not. On a Critical hit the sundering will deal more dmg inflating its dps and allowing for a better result than the vamp.

In the end it really comes down to a bit of luck. With a vamp mod you get a constant +3(for swords) however with a sundering if you land a critical hit while using a skill the dmg can be leathal.

HawkofStorms · Oct 09, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Oh, really?

I think you're wrong. Actually, I know you are wrong. But enough of that.

15^50 is by far the best martial inscription. There's no debate on that. Always run a 15^50 weapon. And if you customize it, that's +35% damage when your health is above 50%.

I agree that vamp is the way to go, but I still have a screenie of a 170+ Reaper's Sweep in my face in halls. I asked the guy later and he said it was a sundering mod.

Oh yeah, because you know you are right makes it so. What a great, logical arguement.

kazjun · Oct 09, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Well, a warrior should have a whole stable of weaps, which was why I was so dissappointed with the HoM, since I was hoping I could store some there.

Anyway, all mods have uses. I carry at least one element, a zealous, a furious and a vamp for sword, axe, hammer and scythe. Well, I tend not to use zealous so much for hammer. I also carry a sunder for hammer, axe and scythe. Though I tend not to run the axe sunder outside a guild team. I find that zealous is more useful in keeping me in energy to stance dance.

Inscriptions, I prefer 15^50 or 15 stanced. You can keep a stance up pretty well, and if you have 600+ hp you don't really go under 50% unless something really goes wrong. I also have a 15 vs hexed I use sometimes in hex heavy teams. Some use 15 enchanted with their conjure crip slash builds but I found that if conjure goes down early cause of stripping you have a downtime of like 40 secs with no damage bonus.

As for armour or fort, I have both, though I prefer fort. +30 helps with degen I guess, but for me it's more about not getting spiked. Or in pve, it keeps you from getting instakilled if your PS goes down. Not very many things will one hit someone with 600+ vs 405 hp, unless you got some crazy terratank setup that takes half your bar. Or you're some 55-105 type. If you're going solo, then armour is good, since you're not caring about surviving long enough for your monk to get to you, and you relying mostly on avoiding and reducing damage.

Anyway, I personally just strip the mods if I find them and stick them on a nice skin for martial weaps. Then resell. Some stuff is hard to sell, but a 20/20, 15^50 +30 is not. Just smile and accept the trade. Then take the money and buy whatever mods you find most useful.

Darkobra · Oct 09, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Part of the problem with measuring Sundering vs Vampiric is that you have a random chance of critical hits during the testing.

On two 180 second tests the number of critical hits could balance but most likely they will not. On a Critical hit the sundering will deal more dmg inflating its dps and allowing for a better result than the vamp.

In the end it really comes down to a bit of luck. With a vamp mod you get a constant +3(for swords) however with a sundering if you land a critical hit while using a skill the dmg can be leathal.

That's exactly why I feel my testing is so flawed and so variable. I've watched my assassin do some very brutal damage with sundering at times, yet vampiric is more consistent. And yet between a warrior and an assassin, only using a weapon and no skills at all, the kills seem to be very closely linked to each other by a matter of 1-2 seconds.

Smoke · Oct 09, 2007, 05:07 AM // 05:07

As it has been said already, 20/20 is one of the worst mods in the game, yet ppl try to push it as "perfect", i wouldnt want 20/20 if it were free, and i stay clear of sellers pushing weapons with 20/20 as perfect as prolly they so nub they will want ridiculous price for it...

Avarre · Oct 09, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Oh yeah, because you know you are right makes it so. What a great, logical arguement.

If enough damage is being focused on you to make you go below 50%, and assuming your monks don't return you to a high level of health rapidly, then you have other places to be besides hitting their soft targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoke

As it has been said already, 20/20 is one of the worst mods in the game, yet ppl try to push it as "perfect", i wouldnt want 20/20 if it were free, and i stay clear of sellers pushing weapons with 20/20 as perfect as prolly they so nub they will want ridiculous price for it...

Most people now say that sundering is garbage because they heard that, the same way people used to think sundering was good because others told them that. Do you have any justification for your statement, or are you just parroting?

jackie · Oct 09, 2007, 05:51 AM // 05:51

I haven't been active in PvP since spring/summer 2006 so things have changed a lot between now and then, but back then our GvG team focused on adrenaline spikes - sundering made helluva difference when it procced.

ayame ftw · Oct 09, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

like i said before, mods are over rated... a top guild will still rape u with mod less weapons

mods are the icing on the cake nothing more, they are nice to have but not at all the deciding factor to win a battle

and in pvp, most people play with pvp characters anyway witch have all mods available… and then u can decide for your self what are perfect mods.

Darkobra · Oct 09, 2007, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Most people now say that sundering is garbage because they heard that, the same way people used to think sundering was good because others told them that. Do you have any justification for your statement, or are you just parroting?

Exactly my thoughts. I'd rather find out first-hand than listen to a bunch of people say it is without saying why it is.

SotiCoto · Oct 09, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

I did a test with 16 dagger mastery, sundering and vampiric daggers. Without skills, the vampiric is only marginally better. With skills, the sundering seemed to out-perform the vampiric, yet death only occured a second faster.

Death occured after 12 seconds with skills and vampiric.
Death occured after 11 seconds with skills and sundering.

How long does it take with neither?
I mean... for instance... with Zealous, which won't do squat to direct damage.

Just so we have some sort of outside frame of reference. We need a "control" if you will to determine whether it is even worthwhile using EITHER of the above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I think you're wrong. Actually, I know you are wrong. But enough of that.

15^50 is by far the best martial inscription. There's no debate on that. Always run a 15^50 weapon. And if you customize it, that's +35% damage when your health is above 50%.

Are you one of those nutters who runs a Dervish with Forsaken insignias? Do you honestly believe that a Dervish will be below 50% health LESS than it will be without enchantments? This is the class which uses Enchants for health and energy management and upon which half their skills rely... remember?

Avarre · Oct 09, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Are you one of those nutters who runs a Dervish with Forsaken insignias? Do you honestly believe that a Dervish will be below 50% health LESS than it will be without enchantments? This is the class which uses Enchants for health and energy management and upon which half their skills rely... remember?

Do you honestly think a Dervish that is brought below 50% and not healed back up is going to be still trying to kill targets? If you're being beaten down either too fast to be healed, or your monks have too little energy/too much pressure, you mitigate.

SotiCoto · Oct 09, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Do you honestly think a Dervish that is brought below 50% and not healed back up is going to be still trying to kill targets? If you're being beaten down either too fast to be healed, or your monks have too little energy/too much pressure, you mitigate.

Dervishes don't bamf... to the best of my knowledge.

As far as I'm aware (and it is worth noting that two thirds of my one year's play time {precisely} have been dedicated exclusively to my Sin)... when a Dervish gets below 50% health, they slam on more Earth Prayers enchants and carry on.

On the other hand... if my main gets below 50% health... then he makes like Nightcrawler and BAMFs out. Unless you're talking D/A (or the Dervish has a certain Ebon Vanguard skill)... they don't have that option... do they?

Then again... I suppose this is all a moot point. Dervishes should be BOTH above 50% health and Enchanted while in combat. Loss of either is cue to fix both.

Besides... what the heck else am I supposed to do with all those 15/Ench inscriptions I keep getting? I simply don't aquire enough 15^50s to kit ALL weapons with them!

bungusmaximus · Oct 09, 2007, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Its simple really, people below 50% should be kiting and retreating because something is obviously WTFPwning them.

Good dervishes don't rely on tons of earth prayers to stay alive, time stalling tanks in AB do that.

Dervishes are the new wammos, but they are disguised as something cool so they can get into groups :P

Cebe · Oct 09, 2007, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Then again... I suppose this is all a moot point. Dervishes should be BOTH above 50% health and Enchanted while in combat. Loss of either is cue to fix both.

I've always seen 15^50 as a "catch-all"...it's sort of the lazy way out. That's in no way a bad thing, but with conditions such as "while enchanted" or "versus hexed" you actually have to remember to apply those enchantments, or that hex, to gain the +15% damage. Inscriptions such as 15/-5e, 15/-10 armor are more sort of passive. You don't need to think about them...you just get the 15% for a constant penalty. 15^50 is sort of in the middle somewhere. A good player shouldn't be at less than 50% health that often, and good monks/rits shouldn't let that happen. I personally prefer 15^50s on most weapons as it is an easier condition to meet instead of having to apply an enchantment or hex, or having to take an energy or armor penalty.

Other items are sort of the same. Shields, for example, have -5(20%) inscriptions, and -2 (stance) inscriptions. It takes some form of concentrated effort to keep a stance up for the -2 reduction, the -5(20%) mod is a lazy way out which required less effort.

Of course, most Dervishes use enchantments, but I'd still feel that the 15^50 mod works fine here, since in a good few areas of PvE enchantment stripping is in abundance.

SotiCoto · Oct 09, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Its simple really, people below 50% should be kiting and retreating because something is obviously WTFPwning them.

Good dervishes don't rely on tons of earth prayers to stay alive, time stalling tanks in AB do that.

Dervishes are the new wammos, but they are disguised as something cool so they can get into groups :P

Makes sense I suppose... but don't they have anything that only triggers when below 50% health.... like we (Sins) have Shroud of Distress? Not of course that I advocate sitting around in combat with Shroud of Distress up... but it does help prevent death. And just because something is WTFPwning them doesn't mean they shouldn't fight it at all (Dungeon bosses tend to do that from time to time, but they still need to be beaten).

Oddly enough... I just can't seem to process "kite" in my head without some sort of BAMF or Dash (necessary 50% boost to break aggro) involved.... or luring of course. I've been Sinning too long. v_v;
More often than not these days, decreasing health means I need to up my Critical rate to trigger Way of Perfection healing (if there is a spirit nearby, they're usually guaranteed to be lower level and thus trigger criticals more often)... or kill what I'm attacking before it kills me. That is practically law if my health is decreasing slowly... though if I see it spiking down my usual choice is to leg it.

Dervishes though?
I have a Dervish.... but I just can't get used to playing him. All the preparation before combat is a pain in the arse... but refreshing all the enchants at exactly the right time is awkward too, especially when I have to be hitting things too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I've always seen 15^50 as a "catch-all"...it's sort of the lazy way out. That's in no way a bad thing, but with conditions such as "while enchanted" or "versus hexed" you actually have to remember to apply those enchantments, or that hex, to gain the +15% damage. Inscriptions such as 15/-5e, 15/-10 armor are more sort of passive. You don't need to think about them...you just get the 15% for a constant penalty. 15^50 is sort of in the middle somewhere. A good player shouldn't be at less than 50% health that often, and good monks/rits shouldn't let that happen. I personally prefer 15^50s on most weapons as it is an easier condition to meet instead of having to apply an enchantment or hex, or having to take an energy or armor penalty.

15/-10 is for Rangers... IMHO. If they're right at the back they shouldn't be getting too much hate.... and blocking stances should help too.
15/-5e is a very nice one provided one is comfortable with their energy management... making it not much of a penalty at all.
The only ones I never use are the 20% ones, 10% fastcast... and the absolutely crippling 15/-1er

Quote:

Of course, most Dervishes use enchantments, but I'd still feel that the 15^50 mod works fine here, since in a good few areas of PvE enchantment stripping is in abundance.

Not many areas have so much that it can strip ALL a Dervish's enchants and stop him slamming another one on instantly.... or so I've found. When that sort of thing happens, I do have an emergency 15^50 weapon, but generally I'd just stay out of combat altogether.

-Loki- · Oct 09, 2007, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

And just because something is WTFPwning them doesn't mean they shouldn't fight it at all (Dungeon bosses tend to do that from time to time, but they still need to be beaten).

If someone is taking so much damage they are going below 50% health, then something is wrong. They shouldn't be hanging around to fight, they should be kiting and finding out why they are getting so badly beaten down before they do die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Oddly enough... I just can't seem to process "kite" in my head without some sort of BAMF or Dash (necessary 50% boost to break aggro) involved.... or luring of course. I've been Sinning too long. v_v;

Kiting isn't using skills to avoid combat or damage, kiting is moving to prevent damage. If there's a melee guy on you, move. He will be hitting less frequently. If you are being hit with projectiles, move as they fire at you, they will miss (ie dodge them). Damage mitigation through movement. Don't run around randomly, recognise what is hitting you and move to best mitigate the damage from that source.

SotiCoto · Oct 09, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

If someone is taking so much damage they are going below 50% health, then something is wrong. They shouldn't be hanging around to fight, they should be kiting and finding out why they are getting so badly beaten down before they do die.

For what it is worth... I don't tend to think much of folk who sit around at the back doing no more than contemplating what they got wrong. Hitting things is FAR more useful, even if it could potentially result in them dying. At the very least they could change HOW they're doing what they're doing on the fly. They can do all the contemplating and build changing they like once they return to an outpost... or while their corpse is waiting for a res.

Quote:

Kiting isn't using skills to avoid combat or damage, kiting is moving to prevent damage. If there's a melee guy on you, move. He will be hitting less frequently. If you are being hit with projectiles, move as they fire at you, they will miss (ie dodge them). Damage mitigation through movement. Don't run around randomly, recognise what is hitting you and move to best mitigate the damage from that source.

... I know that while I'm running around, I cannot use most skills (except stances)... and I certainly can't attack and move at the same time.

Now you mention it though, I do know that movement can play tricks with AI. I can divert an annoying hammer warrior off onto another character by moving away from him, then run back to him and wail on his backside... (provided there aren't more threatening fleshies around to assassinate)... Then again, if the next nearest ally is a monk then I'm doing something wrong... and am probably better off just taking the beating myself (Sins aren't warriors, but we are blessed with more armour than healing Monks).

Oddly enough though... most of that is far too much hassle for me. If I'm still healthy and able to hit things, then I'm in there turning enemy monks / nukers into wassail. If I'm not both of the above then I'm retreating sharply to a position where I can be re-enabled post haste. Playing cat-and-mouse isn't my style (and I hate it when they play mouse too, though I only let them get away if they're leading me away from the rest of their party... No bastard outkites an assassin and gets away with it).

-Loki- · Oct 09, 2007, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

For what it is worth... I don't tend to think much of folk who sit around at the back doing no more than contemplating what they got wrong. Hitting things is FAR more useful, even if it could potentially result in them dying.

No it's not, and since you obviously don't PvP, it's not worth explaining any further. No offence intended, but since you don't need to mitigate damage in 99% of PvE, there's no point trying to explain this to you, especially if my very simple explanation above did nothing but make you think about tricking AI.

Darko_UK · Oct 09, 2007, 10:21 AM // 10:21

I see a perfect mod as one that has max stats. I.E 20/20 10/10 +30 etc.

If I'm attacking a warrior I will use elemental mods, If I'm attacking a squishy I'll use furious or zealous or vamparic. I will only use sundering if I'm attacking a warrior boss or something.